Episode 6
Dead Man Walking (Part 3): Why We’ve Missed the Mark with the Word Sin–and Grace
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This podcast episode serves as an exploration of the themes of sin and grace, particularly in the context of the ongoing series titled 'Dead Man Walking.' As Stackhouse navigates the complexities of these concepts, he challenges listeners to reconsider their understanding of sin, not merely as a list of transgressions but as a profound force that shapes human experience. He asserts that society's preoccupation with revenge and retribution often clouds our comprehension of God's overarching narrative, which seeks restoration and renewal. Stackhouse articulates that God's primary concern is not to impose punishment but to instigate a transformative process of healing and redemption. The conversation invites listeners to engage with these themes thoughtfully, prompting them to reflect on their beliefs and the implications of divine grace in their lives, thus fostering a deeper understanding of their spiritual journey.
Takeaways:
- Heaven Earth Church aims to be a sanctuary for individuals who feel disconnected from traditional church structures, prioritizing their unique narratives.
- The podcast highlights the importance of understanding one's story in relation to God's overarching narrative, emphasizing the significance of personal experiences.
- Through the church community, many individuals are rediscovering their faith, particularly those who have previously felt like misfits in spiritual settings.
- The discussion focuses on the concept of sin, exploring its implications as a cosmic force of darkness that impedes human flourishing and divine connection.
- Listeners are encouraged to consider the transformative power of Jesus as a means of liberation from the forces of darkness affecting humanity.
- The podcast advocates for a shift in perspective regarding sin, moving away from punitive views towards a more grace-centered understanding of redemption.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
Welcome to Heaven Earth Church.
Speaker A:My name is Ross Stackhouse.
Speaker A:I'm the founding pastor of Heaven Earth Church.
Speaker A:From the beginning, our heart was to be a church for people who don't fit neatly into church.
Speaker A:Our heart is to meet people where they are, to learn their stories, to honor their stories.
Speaker A:Because in every human story is God's story.
Speaker A:In this podcast, you'll hear more about the people who now call Heaven Earth Church home.
Speaker A:Their stories, in many cases of misfits who are discovering or rediscovering faith.
Speaker A:If you want to know more about us, you can go to heavenorthchurch.org Otherwise, we invite you now into the story.
Speaker B:Hello good people.
Speaker B:Brad Miller here, the producer of the Heaven Earth Church podcast.
Speaker B:One of the main benefits of being a part of the Heaven Earth Church community is our Sunday morning conversations taught by founding pastor Ross Stackhouse.
Speaker B:You can watch and participate in the Sunday morning conversation this Sunday morning, 9:30am Eastern Time at YouTube.com Heaven Earth Church.
Speaker B:The audio version of the Sunday morning conversation is available here on the podcast, which you can find at Apple Podcasts, Spotify and on the website, which is heavenearthchurch.org now here is part three of the Dead Man Walking series why we've missed the mark on the Word Sin and grace taught by Pastor Ross Stackhouse.
Speaker A:Hey, what's something that you're grateful for today that you sense that only God could be behind?
Speaker A:You're not sure, but you think.
Speaker A:You think so you're wondering God might be behind it.
Speaker A:What are you grateful for?
Speaker A:I'm not going to say that I'm grateful for Purdue winning.
Speaker A:I'm not going to say that.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Get a sleep in your own bed.
Speaker A:After being away for so long, it's definitely good to be in your own bed.
Speaker A:See, I saw Bobo yesterday at the Spring Into Recovery fundraiser for our Recovery Cafe in Johnson county.
Speaker A:And it was just so good to see so many friends who are working in various areas of recovery, different companies and organizations.
Speaker A:And I saw somebody there that you know is a friend of ours from our meeting who struggled on and off for a long time.
Speaker A:And she looks so sober, like not just not on something but like her mind looked clear.
Speaker A:And I was so grateful for that.
Speaker A:But also I want to tell you something that I'm grateful for that you make possible and you may not realize it.
Speaker A:So Alicia Bledsoe is one of our leaders for Recovery Church.
Speaker A:I think you know that Alicia was baptized recently.
Speaker A:Well, there was a peer recovery coach training that became available in our community.
Speaker A:That was Monday through Friday 9 to 5.
Speaker A:And so I was like, do you want to do it?
Speaker A:And she was like, well I would, but like I'll have to miss work.
Speaker A:So we gave her a scholarship and a stipend as a church so she could go do our board approved to do that so that she could go do that.
Speaker A:Because we want to raise people up and, and so like when you give.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:They're not so glamorous things that you're giving pays for like my income.
Speaker A:I mean, I hope that you're happy to have me here blabbing today.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But way more exciting.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Was that Evan Fruits?
Speaker A:Oh, Dave.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But like think about what we get to do together and when, when you know, giving is a spiritual practice but it also allows us to do the mission.
Speaker A:So I'm grateful for that.
Speaker A:What about you?
Speaker A:What are you grateful for today?
Speaker A:It's good to be guided and led by God in all situations and to see how the horizons expand.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What else?
Speaker A:What about you?
Speaker A:What are you grateful for today?
Speaker A:Online folks.
Speaker A:I know, I've heard you can hear me.
Speaker A:So let's hear from you.
Speaker A:Dave's grateful for his relationship with his son.
Speaker A:We love Connor, man.
Speaker A:Love that guy.
Speaker A:Grateful for that too.
Speaker A:Dave.
Speaker A:Jim.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:Grateful for family and for reconciliation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Melissa's thankful for communities where there's that vulnerability based trust where you can just allow yourself to be seen even though things aren't okay.
Speaker A:You don't have to pretend.
Speaker A:It's nice to be in places where you don't have to pretend.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Go ahead.
Speaker A:You only get one.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's how prayer works.
Speaker A:You get one thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Bobo has some shelter, guides kids, teaches kids in juvenile detention.
Speaker A:They have a program called thrive.
Speaker A:It's a 12 step program just for teens.
Speaker A:And she has some kids that their, their faith is fueling their recovery and participation in that.
Speaker A:So Bobo's yet another person who went on to get her peer recovery certification and is giving back to the community.
Speaker A:So it's just super awesome.
Speaker A:Charles.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:I love that too.
Speaker A:Like when you just, you invest in relationships, it's kind of like our scent essential when you just, you're intentional about relationships.
Speaker A:It's funny how they can bless you years later, come back to you in a way that you didn't expect if you just stay with it or you're just mindful of what's going on.
Speaker A:So I'm going to shout out to Maggie, who's listening online right now.
Speaker A:I met Maggie at Johnson's probably five or six years ago.
Speaker A:Johnson's barbecue.
Speaker A:We used to do stuff there, and we just stayed in touch.
Speaker A:And then she just reached out and is experiencing an awakening and wanted to meet this past week.
Speaker A:So we met for coffee.
Speaker A:So I'm thankful for that, too.
Speaker A:Well, hey, I.
Speaker A:Oh, Angie, go ahead.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Angie's just thankful for how God is at work in her life.
Speaker A:She's not surprised in some ways, but in others, she is surprised, especially how God is at work in this church and the people of this church, and how that makes her want to drive 45 minutes.
Speaker A:God love you, Angie.
Speaker A:She had to drive to our board meeting during rush hour on last week.
Speaker A:So, hey, let's pray.
Speaker A:And then we have so little to do and so much time to do it in.
Speaker A:Strike it.
Speaker A:Reverse that.
Speaker A:Willy Wonka.
Speaker A:Anybody?
Speaker A:Lord, I just ask that you would illuminate our minds, soften our hearts, help us to receive this glory that you want us to share, that you want to give us, and that you want to help us to give to others.
Speaker A:Awaken us, O Lord, in Jesus name.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker A:A bit of a weird question that you might want to admit in church, but.
Speaker A:Stop it.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Just be honest.
Speaker A:What's your favorite revenge movie?
Speaker A:Ross?
Speaker A:I don't like Revenge.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I refuse to like such a movie.
Speaker A:Kirsten doesn't care.
Speaker A:She's like, I'll go first.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Kill Bill.
Speaker A:That's a lot of revenge going on in that one.
Speaker A:See, now we're being honest.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I like that.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I like it in church.
Speaker A:Sorry, really quick.
Speaker A:Like, when you talk about something you've watched and someone like, I don't know if you've been in a church where you did that, and then someone's like, can I admit in church that I've also watched that?
Speaker A:Oh, you've seen that?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Anyways, go ahead, Julie.
Speaker A:Double Jeopardy.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Is that Ashley Judd?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, Taken.
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker A:That's like the quintessential, like, revenge movie.
Speaker A:Like, come on.
Speaker A:Ocean's Eleven.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:That's a.
Speaker A:That's a different.
Speaker A:I wouldn't have thought of that as revenge, but it is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:Charles Charles loves revenge.
Speaker A:So go ahead.
Speaker A:Charles Charles is a pastor, too.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:The Italian Job or Italian Job.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Shawshank Redemption.
Speaker A:That's a special kind of revenge right there.
Speaker A:Oh, that's so good.
Speaker A:Skyfall, Adele.
Speaker A:Sing that live.
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker A:Anyways, what else, Evan?
Speaker A:The Lion King.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:A little comeback.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:What else?
Speaker A:I like it.
Speaker A:You People are admitting that you like revenge.
Speaker A:I enjoy that, Ross.
Speaker A:I don't watch movies with revenge.
Speaker A:I want restoration, not revenge.
Speaker A:Right on.
Speaker A:I like all those.
Speaker A:Angie.
Speaker A:Ooh, Tower Heist.
Speaker A:I haven't seen it, so I'll just have to trust you, Angie, that it's a good revenge movie.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Collateral Damage.
Speaker A:Who's in that?
Speaker A:Bobo?
Speaker A:Oh, yes, yes.
Speaker A:Never mind.
Speaker A:That rings a bell now.
Speaker A:Well, we better get going because, shoot, it's 10 11, and we've got to talk about sin today as a part of our show.
Speaker A:Are you excited?
Speaker A:Aren't you excited you came to talk to talk about that?
Speaker A:The reason I want to start off with that is I think that, look, I love a good revenge movie where a hero is pushed to the brink, comes back and doesn't like, doesn't just get even, but, you know, really does something to expose or bring it to the enemy or whatever.
Speaker A:But I also realize that we kind of as a culture, especially now, it occurs to me that we're pretty hell bent on revenge.
Speaker A:I think that we're hell bent on letting our egos take the wheel and steer.
Speaker A:I think as human beings, we get stuck on carrying around our.
Speaker A:Our sense of, like, resentment.
Speaker A:We love to hang on to our resentments and our war stories about the people who have wronged us.
Speaker A:Our resentments, our desire for retribution and revenge.
Speaker A:I think that's in all of us.
Speaker A:And the reason I bring that up today is because I think that matters for if we're going to understand.
Speaker A:We're in this series called Dead man why Jesus died and why it still matters for ordinary people.
Speaker A:And some of the questions we've gotten is about, like, this whole series is like, okay, so Jesus name means he saves.
Speaker A:Like, but why?
Speaker A:How does that work?
Speaker A:In what sense does Jesus save us?
Speaker A:And why.
Speaker A:Why does he die?
Speaker A:Why is his death like, a key event in the thing that saves us?
Speaker A:And I think if we're going to understand some of the answers to that and what we're going to talk about today, I think we got to bring into focus kind of our.
Speaker A:Kind of how we hang on to resentment, retribution, revenge, how our world is kind of patterned in that, and it's hard to even feel it and see it.
Speaker A:But if you look at our politics right now, of course, which I know maybe you want to break from today, how much is that just a part of our political and social fabric?
Speaker A:I think the main question that some people are asking in politics and society right now, the main question a lot of folks are concerned with is how do we get even?
Speaker A:Rather than what I think is God's main concern, which is, I'll show you right here.
Speaker A:I explored the, I was exploring, I've been exploring the gospels in the New Testament, like in depth, for this theme of salvation.
Speaker A:In depth.
Speaker A:And I realized that overall, like, if you're going to understand salvation, you have to understand that God's main concern is making things right, is making all things new.
Speaker A:So Revelation 21, I've told you, says, behold, I am making all things new.
Speaker A:God's main concern is not getting even or getting revenge.
Speaker A:God's main concern is not just taking some people out of the wreckage that has become creation and getting them out of it.
Speaker A:God's main concern is the whole thing.
Speaker A:It's making all things right and making all things new.
Speaker A:So in our political and social fabric, sometimes we're thinking we don't even notice it.
Speaker A:How do I make my team win?
Speaker A:How do I prove that my team is right?
Speaker A:How do we get even?
Speaker A:God's question is, what actually does justice in the end?
Speaker A:What actually makes the wrong things right?
Speaker A:And that's what I don't see in our politicians.
Speaker A:I don't see anyone with that question in their heart.
Speaker A:How do I give my life to service that makes wrong things right?
Speaker A:Or maybe you think that is what's going on.
Speaker A:Do you see anyone with that heart?
Speaker A:Am I missing someone out there?
Speaker A:Maybe they are, I don't know.
Speaker A:But today we're going to talk about, for the next 15 minutes, let's see if I can stick to it.
Speaker A:Evan, we're going to talk about this good old fashioned church word, sin, and what that has to do with this and this main concern for God.
Speaker A:What does sin have to do with it?
Speaker A:We've been in a series called Dead Man Walking.
Speaker A:Like I talked about last week, I do want to recap this for you really quick.
Speaker A:I want to show you.
Speaker A:Last week we talked about this.
Speaker A:I showed you this slide and this is the picture of the Milky Way.
Speaker A:And there we are, that little dot, that little solar system in one galaxy amongst I don't even know how many.
Speaker A:And yet in some way there's this special situation that we find ourselves in.
Speaker A:On Earth, God's hope and desire was to share glory, God's light and glory with you.
Speaker A:Psalm 8 says that we are crowned with God's glory.
Speaker A:Our destiny is to be people of God's glory who emanate or share God's glory.
Speaker A:Jesus says, you are the salt and light of the earth.
Speaker A:Your destiny is to reflect God's light.
Speaker A:And so we talked about this cosmic view of salvation.
Speaker A:Like how my thesis for this whole thing is that Jesus salvation, when I investigated the Bible, it's so much bigger, so much brighter, so much more beautiful, mysterious and freeing than we've heard.
Speaker A:And it matters for every ordinary person on earth.
Speaker A:Jesus came.
Speaker A:This is what the salvation is all about.
Speaker A:Jesus came to bring his kingdom of light and glory to defeat the forces of death and darkness that have taken over our earth, the forces that we give ourselves to, that we participate in.
Speaker A:So today I want to kind of talk to you about this word sin and how classically people have.
Speaker A:I've heard many, many people say that the word sin means to like in the original language, to miss the mark.
Speaker A:Imagine shooting an arrow, bow and arrow, and you're trying to hit a target, but you miss and end up hitting someone else or something else.
Speaker A:Ironically, I think the church has missed the mark, understanding what the Bible's main view of sin is to begin with.
Speaker A:But before we go, when you hear the word sin, what's the first thoughts and feelings that come to mind?
Speaker A:Las Vegas Sin City, baby.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Thank you, P.T.
Speaker A:kirsten.
Speaker A:Without.
Speaker A:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you for that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When you hear the word sin, what thoughts, words, feelings come to mind?
Speaker A:Like uncensored guilt, hurting myself.
Speaker A:I like how we're getting honest today.
Speaker A:Something that can be a lot of fun, but the price is too high.
Speaker A:That's now going to be our definition of sin in here for the church.
Speaker A:It's a lot of fun, but the price is too high.
Speaker A:Alicia.
Speaker A:Aha.
Speaker A:I want to say really quick, I think, and you can now chime in whether you agree.
Speaker A:I think that's been most of the churches, we've experienced their primary view of sin with it.
Speaker A:There's this long lists, list of like, don't do this, because if you do, we'll go back to the formula we talked about last week.
Speaker A:It's a list of, like, don'ts behaviors, thoughts, words, actions that you, you can't do.
Speaker A:That's it, Charles.
Speaker A:A dark heart.
Speaker A:Hang on to that.
Speaker A:Hang on to that.
Speaker A:We got three hands.
Speaker A:I think Jill is first.
Speaker A:Shame.
Speaker A:We've talked a lot in here about the difference between guilt and shame.
Speaker A:It's a big field in psychology that grew up, especially in the last.
Speaker A:It had a revival in the last, like 10, 15 years.
Speaker A:Guilt is I feel bad about this thing I did.
Speaker A:Shame is I feel bad about me.
Speaker A:There's something bad, there's defect, I'm defective, I'm dirty.
Speaker A:Sometimes the church communicated that a little bit or a lot.
Speaker A:Who else?
Speaker A:Melissa?
Speaker A:Hell.
Speaker A:Sin and hell are tied together.
Speaker A:Amanda.
Speaker A:Shame and control.
Speaker A:Rock and roll.
Speaker A:I literally got.
Speaker A:I had started to play in a rock and roll band.
Speaker A:And my grandpa's wife, Avis.
Speaker A:Lovely woman, Lovely woman.
Speaker A:I love her.
Speaker A:She has passed away.
Speaker A:She wrote me a card that the whole content of the card was I needed to stop listening to and playing devil music.
Speaker A:It's a true story.
Speaker A:It made me like, I'm definitely playing it now.
Speaker A:Cue the nirvana.
Speaker A:Let's go, Joey.
Speaker A:Wrong or evil.
Speaker A: All right, it's: Speaker A:We gotta fly.
Speaker A:We gotta go fast.
Speaker A:I told you last week about the formula.
Speaker A:Really quick recap.
Speaker A:I believe in our society and culture, we became a people who wanted more of a formula way for everything.
Speaker A:There was something that started called the enlightenment.
Speaker A:If you're like, I don't want to hear about that.
Speaker A:It's too confusing.
Speaker A:I don't know that word even means.
Speaker A:It was just a movement in the world really, where we wanted more reason and explanation.
Speaker A:We don't want things that have any supernatural explanation.
Speaker A:We don't trust the supernatural.
Speaker A:We want something to have an explanation which gave us many good, good things.
Speaker A:Many good things.
Speaker A:I'm so happy.
Speaker A:Reason can be a vehicle of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A:Our minds are a gift.
Speaker A:They are a gift.
Speaker A:But we wanted to put our theology, the way we understand God, Jesus, and how it all works together in a formula.
Speaker A:Easier to control, easier to have faith, easier for evangelism.
Speaker A:A plus B equals C.
Speaker A:We talked about that formula.
Speaker A:Do you remember that at all?
Speaker A:This isn't me.
Speaker A:Remember?
Speaker A:This isn't Ross talking.
Speaker A:This is the formula that was popular in church.
Speaker A:A is, Charles, you are a sinner.
Speaker A:You've been a sinner from the time you were born.
Speaker A:The minute you came out, sinner, the doctor should have looked at you and said, look at this sinner right here.
Speaker A:You think that's nuts?
Speaker A:That's really what the theology said.
Speaker A:Don't get me wrong.
Speaker A:There is some truth in that.
Speaker A:I am a professional sinner.
Speaker A:I've been one my whole life.
Speaker A:There is truth to it.
Speaker A:But to.
Speaker A:But this went so deep as to say, like, from the minute you're born, you.
Speaker A:You bear the guilt of original sin.
Speaker A:You are gonna.
Speaker A:That's what you do.
Speaker A:And you deserve punishment for it.
Speaker A:Consequences.
Speaker A:And the consequences for that ultimately are, as Melissa Bryant told us, death.
Speaker A:And specifically death.
Speaker A:In this fiery place of eternal punishment, we have come to know as.
Speaker A:Okay, are you with me?
Speaker A:Are you going to sleep Already this fiery place of eternal torture and punishment, we've come to know as, or to put it nicely, eternal separation from God.
Speaker A:That's if we wanted to church it up a little bit.
Speaker A:But luckily for our sakes, B.
Speaker A:Came to the world.
Speaker A:Who's B?
Speaker A:But specifically, what did Jesus do?
Speaker A:He died on the cross to take the punishment for us in our place.
Speaker A:He beared the consequences of sin in our place so that whoever believes in him will not perish in that place of eternal torture, punishment, or eternal separation and go to sea, which is heaven.
Speaker A:Yeah, that wouldn't work, Joe.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:Yeah, we still end up in hell.
Speaker A:Then it would be a really bad plan.
Speaker A:Okay, we wanted a formula.
Speaker A:We needed a formula so we could control it because God is mysterious.
Speaker A:Did you know the Bible is weird?
Speaker A:Did you know it?
Speaker A:Very weird.
Speaker A:Go hang out in Deuteronomy for a while and you'll be like, you know what?
Speaker A:It is weird.
Speaker A:Very weird.
Speaker A:But my thesis for this series, Jesus Salvation, is so much bigger, so much brighter, more beautiful, freeing and mysterious than we've ever heard.
Speaker A:And even with our view of sin.
Speaker A:I want to show you how I'm going to do it fast.
Speaker A:How even Paul, There's a guy by the name of Paul, if you don't know who that is, he was a guy who persecuted the Jesus movement in his early adult years.
Speaker A:Super accomplished guy like Evan Fruits.
Speaker A:Very accomplished, very awesome.
Speaker A:And then he realized, like, man, I'm not as awesome as I think.
Speaker A:Because he had an encounter with the risen Jesus and changed his life and lost everything to bear witness to this light named Jesus.
Speaker A:This guy Paul went around planting churches in the ancient Mediterranean world.
Speaker A:So modern day Turkey, modern day Greece, all the way over to Rome.
Speaker A:Eventually he wrote this letter to the churches in Rome called Romans.
Speaker A:Okay, all right.
Speaker A:We're doing it.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And this letter is the letter for evangelical Christianity.
Speaker A:Baby, this letter is the gospel.
Speaker A:So I've told you the Bible is a library of scriptures.
Speaker A:And for the Christian, like, at the end of the day, if we don't know what to do, we go to this section of the library called the Gospels, and we listen to this guy named Jesus.
Speaker A:We ask, what did he say?
Speaker A:What did he do?
Speaker A:How do we pattern our lives after that?
Speaker A:Well, in evangelical Christianity, of which I'm.
Speaker A:I was born up in it in many ways.
Speaker A:So much.
Speaker A:I'm so grateful for my evangelical roots.
Speaker A:Seriously, I am.
Speaker A:But the gospel for them is this letter to the Romans.
Speaker A:And specifically, like three chapters.
Speaker A:Have you ever heard this phrase, all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.
Speaker A:Ever heard of that?
Speaker A:Raise your hand for real if you've heard that phrase before.
Speaker A:Whoa, look at you.
Speaker A:Where'd that come from?
Speaker A:Romans.
Speaker A:Whoo.
Speaker A:And because we wanted a formula, we missed what Romans was all about.
Speaker A:Romans is more like, I've told you, like, Star Wars.
Speaker A:Paul's belief wholeheartedly, his whole belief is that sin is not just individual thoughts, words, and actions.
Speaker A:You're that long list that Alicia talked about.
Speaker A:Sin is not just you having a really fun time with that long list of don'ts and then having to pay the price, which is too high.
Speaker A:But luckily, Jesus pays the price for you, so you get to go to heaven.
Speaker A:That is not how Paul sees sin.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker A:If you take little pieces of the scripture and just isolate them out, you can make him think that.
Speaker A:I want to give you just a quick snapshot of how he views sin.
Speaker A:And then, more importantly, why do you care?
Speaker A:Why should you care?
Speaker A:Why might it help us on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday?
Speaker A:Paul's view of sin is that it's ultimately, like we talked about, this very big, bright, beautiful view of salvation that's, like, cosmic.
Speaker A:Like the kingdom of light, remember we talked about last week, is invading and, like, doing battle with the forces of darkness and evil that have taken over the world.
Speaker A:Big cosmic stuff.
Speaker A:Paul sees sin as this cosmic force of darkness in which people are, like, imprisoned.
Speaker A:And right now, you're already doing it.
Speaker A:I can feel it.
Speaker A:You're like, oh, man, that seems a little weird to me.
Speaker A:Ross, remember we talked about last week?
Speaker A:We've got this rise of people who are spiritual but not religious.
Speaker A:More and more people, if they go to Starbucks and they get two drinks instead of one, they'll say something like, the universe wanted me to have two drinks today.
Speaker A:They'll say things like that.
Speaker A:But the minute we start actually talking about, like, spiritual forces of darkness, they're like, whoa, easy, pal.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:You're being weird.
Speaker A:Well, it's funny how we'd be willing to believe spiritual things on one hand, but then on the other hand, when we actually start talking about, like, spiritual forces of darkness or evil at work in the world, we're like, too weird.
Speaker A:I'm out.
Speaker A:But then we'll be willing to admit, like Paul says, that the good I want to do, the very good I want to do, that is not what I do, but the evil I don't want to do, that's what I end up doing.
Speaker A:I guarantee you, if all of you are honest with yourself, you'd be like, that's at least somewhat true for me.
Speaker A:Is there any truth for you that, like, sometimes the very things that you want to do the most, those aren't the things you do and the things that you want to do the least, those are the things that you end up doing?
Speaker A:Or is it just me?
Speaker A:I told you, when I get up in the morning, my ego's ready to go to work with me.
Speaker A:Daggone it.
Speaker A:Paul's view of sin is that it's this, like, force of darkness.
Speaker A:Like, there are spiritual forces of darkness that are like, that have destroyed our world and they shouldn't have, but they did.
Speaker A:Like, and everybody is in this prison now, and Jesus comes to what, to free us and forgive us.
Speaker A:So for Paul, and then I'm going to show you this really quickly.
Speaker A:In the scriptures, for Paul, it's both.
Speaker A:Is sin an individual word, action, or behavior, or is it a force?
Speaker A:Ross?
Speaker A:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:For Paul, when Brandon, hypothetically, let's say Brandon, today we were practicing for music, and then Brandon said to me, you know, Ross, your voice really sucks today.
Speaker A:And then I was like, geez, man.
Speaker A:And so for the next week, instead of talking, I start storing up resentment in my heart for Brandon.
Speaker A:And, like, and then slowly I go, he's actually not a good person.
Speaker A:Come to think of it, now that I play back my interactions with him, I actually think he's not a good person.
Speaker A:And then I'm like, you know what?
Speaker A:I kind of hope that Brandon gets exposed for what he is, not a good person.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker A:None of you have done anything like that before because you're a good Christian, right?
Speaker A:You've never done anything like that.
Speaker A:What I just did in that hypothetical scenario?
Speaker A:Yes, I had some individual thoughts, beliefs, resentments that are not what God destined for me.
Speaker A:And when I was doing that, I was participating in the forces of darkness.
Speaker A:I was giving my allegiance to the forces of darkness from which Jesus has freed me.
Speaker A:Let me show you really quick.
Speaker A: Give me till: Speaker A:Okay, deal.
Speaker A:I'm doing it anyway.
Speaker A:So just like, you're entrapped, you're trapped in sin.
Speaker A:You're trapped with me for another six minutes.
Speaker A:I just want to show you a little bit.
Speaker A:Like, watch how Paul's view of sin is about, like, this force.
Speaker A:Like, he uses big, big language.
Speaker A:It's not just like, oh, Elisha did these 10 things you're not supposed to do.
Speaker A:So now you're destined for hell because you did those 10 thoughts, words, and actions you're not supposed to do no sin is like this force of a kingdom of darkness that Jesus comes to free us from, wants us to participate in the kingdom of light and glory.
Speaker A:So we'll make a quick run through this.
Speaker A:Nope, we got to keep going.
Speaker A:Ooh, big scary word.
Speaker A:God's wrath.
Speaker A:We'll have to deal with that one another day.
Speaker A:Not going to get to it today.
Speaker A:Look, look.
Speaker A:Ever since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities, God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen because they are understood through things God has made.
Speaker A:So humans are without excuse.
Speaker A:Although they knew God, they didn't honor God as God or thank him.
Speaker A:Instead, their reasoning became pointless and their foolish hearts, Charles, became darkened.
Speaker A:So the reason I wanted to show you that one is that from the beginning, Paul has this idea that like, whatever happened along the way, something happened to humanity as a whole.
Speaker A:And for generations, like our world has been destroyed by this darkness and hardness of heart amongst human beings.
Speaker A:And so again, you'll notice in these letters if you're paying attention, that Paul's main questions aren't how, like, God saves individual people out of this mess that has become human civilization.
Speaker A:Instead, he's asking like, how do we actually make things right?
Speaker A:How do things actually get made right?
Speaker A:How do things get restored?
Speaker A:How does the world get restored from this darkness that has destroyed humankind?
Speaker A:Our hearts collectively become darkened and hardened.
Speaker A:God is asking like, how do we make that right?
Speaker A:Not just how do we get even?
Speaker A:How do I make the humans pay for what they've been up to?
Speaker A:No, how do we save them?
Speaker A:That's the main question.
Speaker A:Romans 2:5.
Speaker A:We were going to talk about wrath another day.
Speaker A:Sorry, I'll just say this really quick.
Speaker A:How many of you honesty again.
Speaker A:How many of you have just got a little itty bitty tiny bit of rage with what's going on in the political world right now?
Speaker A:Anyone?
Speaker A:Look at those hands.
Speaker A:You're allowed to have rage, but God isn't.
Speaker A:Hmm, weird.
Speaker A:God is not happy about what humankind has become, what God's beautiful world has become.
Speaker A:But the story of the gospel is that God doesn't choose wrath.
Speaker A:God chooses grace.
Speaker A:God decides to give offering to the world and offering named Jesus to win us back.
Speaker A:Romans 3, 9.
Speaker A:There, you see that?
Speaker A:All under the.
Speaker A:Say the next word.
Speaker A:So what are we saying?
Speaker A:Are we better off?
Speaker A:Not at all.
Speaker A:We've already stated the charge.
Speaker A:Both Jews and Greeks are all under the.
Speaker A:It's not just individual thoughts, words and actions.
Speaker A:Paul thinks there's this power at work in the World.
Speaker A:It's funny how you know why I love hanging out with the recovery community.
Speaker A:They take this stuff so seriously.
Speaker A:So seriously.
Speaker A:They have tried and tried and tried and tried to be in recovery.
Speaker A:They've mustered every bit of willpower they can to not do the list of don'ts.
Speaker A:And at some point they realized the main.
Speaker A:The first step in recovery.
Speaker A:The first and second.
Speaker A:My life has become unmanageable and I need a power greater than myself.
Speaker A:That's what Paul is bearing witness to in Romans.
Speaker A:Not my phone.
Speaker A:What does my phone have to do with it?
Speaker A:He's saying in this letter, like, there is this power that is just destroying humankind in the world.
Speaker A:We need a glorious power who is greater than ourselves.
Speaker A:Not just make us good old Christian people, but who can transform us with a glorious power from the inside out.
Speaker A:So we no longer participate in the spiritual forces of darkness and evil, but instead we give our allegiance daily to the spiritual forces of light and glory which Jesus has come to spread on the earth.
Speaker A:Are you with me?
Speaker A:So when I lie.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Am I doing an individual action?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Am I doing it to preserve myself?
Speaker A:You betcha.
Speaker A:I don't lie, folks.
Speaker A:Just kidding.
Speaker A:Anyways, when I treat people as a means to an end.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Am I doing an individual action?
Speaker A:Are my thoughts off the mark?
Speaker A:Am I not measuring up to the glory for which God has destined me?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:But I'm also man.
Speaker A:I feel it sometimes.
Speaker A:I can't describe it.
Speaker A:I'm under the influence of like these spiritual forces of darkness at work in me, at work in the world.
Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, it's: Speaker A:We're almost done, I swear.
Speaker A:Listen, I got to give you the Cliff Notes version of Romans 5.
Speaker A:This whole chapter 5 is like of Romans.
Speaker A:Is the evangelical like chapter of chapters, Romans 5, even that one.
Speaker A:If you.
Speaker A:Your homework is to go back and read it, read chapters five and six of Romans and instead think of Paul as asking the question, what is God going to do about this dark force of sin that is destroying the world?
Speaker A:Read it.
Speaker A:Not with the formula in mind.
Speaker A:Are you with me?
Speaker A:Read Romans 5 and 6.
Speaker A:You got homework this week?
Speaker A:Read it.
Speaker A:Don't be looking for that A + B equals C formula.
Speaker A:Read it.
Speaker A:Looking for.
Speaker A:Paul is addressing this question, what is God doing about this force of sin that has destroyed humankind for generations?
Speaker A:You'll hear him talk about glory, how we've fallen short of God's glory.
Speaker A:I told you, the whole end game is Habakkuk.
Speaker A:The knowledge of God's glory will cover the earth, as surely as the waters cover the sea.
Speaker A:God is coming to win us from these spiritual forces.
Speaker A:Darkness, over to this glory.
Speaker A:And look what I will read this one last thing.
Speaker A:Romans 6.
Speaker A:Listen to how, like, cosmic this gets.
Speaker A:Paul's basically saying, so, like, because God chose grace instead of wrath, God decided to give Christ as an offering to battle this force that's destroying us.
Speaker A:Should we go on sinning more?
Speaker A:No way.
Speaker A:Look at this.
Speaker A:It's so, like, big.
Speaker A:Don't you know that all of us who are baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death.
Speaker A:We were buried together with him through the baptism into his death.
Speaker A:So just as Christ was raised from the dead through the.
Speaker A:Just as Christ was raised from the dead through the.
Speaker A:This is about the kingdom of glory and light, like, winning back the earth.
Speaker A:We too can walk in newness of life.
Speaker A:I'm going to skip through these here.
Speaker A:Oh, there it is again.
Speaker A:I'm not making it up because the person has died, has been freed from sins.
Speaker A:It's not just like, oh, I lied today and so I did a thing on the not do list.
Speaker A:It's like, hey, you're imprisoned.
Speaker A:Jesus comes to liberate you.
Speaker A:Academy Award music.
Speaker A:Cue it.
Speaker A:Come on in, Boaz.
Speaker A:Show us what you got.
Speaker A:What's that?
Speaker A:That looks cool.
Speaker A:All right, last thing.
Speaker A:In the same way, you should also consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive for God in Christ Jesus.
Speaker A:This is about a change of allegiance.
Speaker A:Being a Christian is about, like, this cosmic change of allegiance.
Speaker A:That's why I said Star wars does it better.
Speaker A:The Bible is asking, like, hey, who are you going to join up with?
Speaker A:The dark side or the rebels?
Speaker A:And the rebels in this case are people who follow Jesus.
Speaker A:Are you a rebel?
Speaker A:Some of you are like, yes.
Speaker A:Finally he gets me.
Speaker A:Living for Jesus in the kingdom of light and glory is like being a part of a rebellion.
Speaker A:When you hang out with the dark side, you're just, like, doing what everybody else does.
Speaker A:Paul's saying, don't do that.
Speaker A:Don't let sin rule your body.
Speaker A:Do you hear that?
Speaker A:That cosmic, like, who rules you?
Speaker A:That's the question, like, day to day.
Speaker A:That's the, like, practical stuff.
Speaker A:Don't let sin rule your body.
Speaker A:Here's the part right here.
Speaker A:Don't offer parts of your body to sin to be used as weapons to do wrong.
Speaker A:You hear that?
Speaker A:Instead, present yourselves to God as people who have been brought back to life from the dead and offer the parts of your body to God to be used as weapons to do right.
Speaker A:Do you see how sin is not this like it's not just a bunch of behaviors.
Speaker A:See how big Instead of offering your life as weapons to do wrong, participating in the dark side Dave Offer your life.
Speaker A:Jim Offer your life.
Speaker A:Charles Adam Offer your life as a weapon to do right.
Speaker A:It's a cosmic thing like so every day.
Speaker A:When you choose with God's help, you need a power greater than yourself.
Speaker A:Can't do it on your own.
Speaker A:When you choose to see the person in front of you as a beautiful creation of God, you're part of the rebellion.
Speaker A:When you get up and decide to spend 10 minutes in prayer, you're part of the rebellion.
Speaker A:When you forgive someone because we're so hell bent on revenge, resentment and retribution.
Speaker A:When you forgive someone, you're part of the rebellion.
Speaker A:You're bringing the light and glory of God into the place.
Speaker A:Everything is an opportunity to not participate in the force of sin, to give it up, to turn from it and say I want to participate in the kingdom of light and glory.
Speaker A:It's an opportunity to say God, thank you for freeing me from this force and forgiving me.
Speaker A:Lord, help me to be a part of the light.
Speaker A:You have that opportunity on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and today.
Speaker A:Go read Romans 5, 6 with this in mind now.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Oh geez, let's pray.
Speaker A:Oh Lord, help me to be better with time.
Speaker A:Lord, help us to be to break free from this shrunken down view of salvation, this shrunk down view of you.
Speaker A:Help us to be part of this beautiful majestic kingdom of light and glory that's invading the earth.
Speaker A:Help us to be part of the rebellion.
Speaker A:Help us to trust that we are simply who you say we are because of your grace, because of your love for us.
Speaker A:Help us to fight with the only weapon that can actually free us and make things right.
Speaker A:Love in Jesus name.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker B:Thank you for participating in the conversation happening at Heaven Earth Church.
Speaker B:Your next opportunity to do so live is this Sunday morning, 9:30am Eastern time either at the main campus at 309 East Main in Whiteland, Indiana or online at YouTube Live.
Speaker B:That's@YouTube.com heavenearth church.
Speaker B:The audio podcast is always available at Apple Podcast and on Spotify.
Speaker B:You can help others find out about the Heaven Earth Church podcast by going to Apple Podcasts and or Spotify and leaving a five star rating and your review instructions on how to do just that and links are in the show notes.
Speaker B:You can always find out more by going to the church website heavenearthchurch.org we.
Speaker A:Want to thank you for spending time with us today.
Speaker A:My name is Ross Stackhouse, the pastor to Heaven Earth Church.
Speaker A:And you may think out there that your story is over, but in fact, your faith story may just be beginning.
Speaker A:If you want more information about our church or you're interested in the next step, you can go to heavenearthchurch.org Otherwise, we look forward to being with you next time at the Heaven Earth Church podcast.
